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  • Hey there, Kirkburn from Fandom Support here. we've been contacted by Evan1975 due to concerns about your recent content deletions - can you tell me more about why you're consolidating many pages into one? Server space and performance is not a concern for us, and I'm curious about your reasoning for it.

    Additionally, we're not actually sure why Evan1975 wasn't already a bureaucrat on this wiki, despite being the main admin for a very long time (since 2009!). Would you be okay with us bumping them up to bureaucrat as well? (This would not affect your rights, it's mostly just about fixing a long-term oddity.)

    Thanks for your time!

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    • I explained it all to Evan, to which he agreed - both conversations are on his page. Essentially, the wiki is filled with stubs and fanart and 'articles' a mere few words at most. I thus transferred over the character pages to the list to tidy the wiki and make them easier to find and make things look more professional. You can see I've gradually done this on various character lists (including loving over various images too). It seems off-putting to users (and impractical to navigation) to have "articles" that often are for characters not actually in the series, throwaway one-panel characters, etc. and have literally hundreds of these with no real content. Old conversations I spotted with the old bureaucrat directed people to make pages just to make the wiki seem bigger than it is, and indeed they seem like desperate grabs to make ones edit count higher. The same content is slowly being moved all onto one place, so nothing is lost and it looks better and is easier to find. 

      I'd be dubious about making him a bureaucrat simply as he's making communication so hard - undoing deletions before talking to me, ignoring me when I asked about merging other pages on another list, going to you instead of talking to me first to see if we could resolve it amongst ourselves... he also never answered me for months after I asked to be bureaucrat or applied himself, saying only he'd "think about it," and silence. He also rarely makes substantial edits or any edits. 

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    • To add to that, you can even see he agreed with me about consolidating pages in the longer discussion between us. He never came to me about any newer issues since. 

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    • Yeah... from what I understand from the previous conversation between KevinVolkov and Evan, there was an initial disagreement about consolidating pages and then he seemed to be okay with it. Absolutely no disrespect to Evan, but if he was still concerned he should have brought it up again so it could be discussed and sorted. :S

      ETA: I also seem to recall seeing a rule from the old bureaucrat saying “there are no rules”, so this probably lead to a lot of pages being created with literally nothing on them except a picture or a single line of text... I understand that some can be expanded but if a lot of them are just random background characters it seems kind if silly to create a page for them (though I noticed the old bureaucrat believed that articles didn’t need anything on them?) Moreover I don’t think it’s unusual for wikias to discourage creating stubs—it seems some do and others don’t. Either way I think it’s pretty terrible that “there are no rules” was a rule.

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    • I'd also add someone seems to have asked him in 2010 to go for the bureaucrat position and he ignored them, so I would also - along with his lack of communication - doubt his commitment to the role and desire to act as bureaucrat. 

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    • I'm also concerned by seeming racism; one page for Golemman (screenshot, in case needed) talks of "Arabs" being a problem, while past edits to another page (may be Amazonman) talk of "primitive" people and how Japanese people are "too sensitive" to racism. A lot of his language is far from politically correct, with racist undertones, and this worries me from an administrator, let alone a bureaucrat. So I would object on many fronts.

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    • @Kirkburn

      I would officially like to request permission to demote Evan1975.

      [Edit: Apologies for the format of my bullet-lists, as I copy/pasted from Word]

      I am reluctant to do so of my own accord, due to the current complaint under investigation, as it would strike me as unethical and an abuse of power, but – regardless – I feel that I have strong cause for concern with him as a staff member at present. I am posting this here, as per Fandom rules and protocol, so that my actions are completely transparent and Evan1975 will have a chance to defend himself and refute any potentially inaccurate claims. I will also state I have screenshots of anything claimed for evidence, although I am sure that Fandom staff would be able to see histories.

      In regards to the current situation, first and foremost:

      ·         Fandom rules on Community Central appear to have a strict list for resolving disputes, all of which Evan1975 has completely ignored.

      o   He did not seek to compromise with me

      o   He did not seek to speak to someone unconnected to the alleged dispute, and we do have another active administrator at present

      o   He did not make any proposals on the wiki itself to address matters

      o   He did not try diplomacy first; at no point did he talk to me directly or indirectly

      o   He did not talk to the community; we have several active users

      o   He does not appear to have asked for advice in the community channels (of this I may stand corrected, but I was unable to find such a thread)

      In regards to the current dispute between us; Evan1975 agreed with me on a compromise that I suggested, after I was the one to initiate contact with him, and – after a great deal of discussion – everything appeared fully resolved. He never once contacted me again after that fact. I had no means to know that the solution – to which he approved – was actually something to which he had issues. Instead, he troubled Fandom staff without even attempting a civil resolution between us on the matter. This is highly unprofessional and unethical, and gave me no chance to resolve the issue.

      The matter in question pertains to an issue with consolidating stub articles; I found no rules on ToS or Community Central disallowing Wiki rules against stub articles, while finding – and using – many wikis that employ such rules against stub articles. I also have saved – and am saving – all content by my attempts to consolidate it into one article. The articles in question also cannot realistically be expanded, and those that could – such as “John Bull” – were left as they stood.

      In regards to other causes for concern:

      ·         Evan1975 has a habit of not responding to people asking for advice and help, as seen on his archived Talk Page (and cross-referencing that with the archived talk pages of people with whom which made contact)

      ·         He has often uploaded fanart, which is against ToS and copyright, and has never once made an attempt to remove these pieces, even after I mentioned them to him and he acknowledged that they were an issue and should be removed

      ·         In regards to the suggestion he be promoted:

      o   Evan1975 has someone suggest to him that he apply to be a bureaucrat in 2010, as well as myself making clear the position was available in January 2019, but never once applied for the position in the past ten years or expression interest. In this time he also refused to promote other members due to his belief that with more admins “the messier and uglier things get”, despite effectively being inactive for some time.

      ·         He rarely makes edits of substance, only seeming to log on once a month or so, and this is in spite of the fact that the wiki required a lot of work when I became bureaucrat. He neglected dead links, stub articles, incomplete articles, references, formatting, etc. – in fact, he states he is “not good” with infoboxes to me, and technology in general in an archived chat. The theme was default, many of his “edits” were talks to me or automated bots that greeted users, and – leading to my next point – he ignored me several times

      ·         After I approached him with my request to become an administrator and/or a bureaucrat, he proceeded to “think about it” for I believe 60 days or more, and to this day I have never received a reply to my March comment that offered again to help him as – at the time – a fellow administrator, if not a bureaucrat.

      o   I also – after our dispute – reached out to him with a suggestion to merge general techniques onto one page, specifying I was deleting character techniques, as they appeared word for word on character pages and were redundant – I asked him whether he thought it a good idea to merge these pages. He ignored the question.

      ·         I am also concerned with some politically incorrect statements, if not outright racist ones, depending on one’s interpretation and would like to reference Fandom’s strict stance against hate speech. He has blamed “Arabs” for vandalism, and has spoke of indigenous people as being a “primitive” people, and claimed that Japanese people are “oversensitive” to issues of racism and speaks of “foreign” backlash.

      I would also add that Soutenkyuu and I have done a great deal of work to this wiki. I have worked with Soutenkyuu on other projects and can attest for their vast experience with the more technological aspects of site design, as they have personally designed various sites and forums to which I was once a member and/or staff member. You will see that that have enabled Java, created sliders entirely by their own skill and talent alone, added a logo, a background theme, a ‘bot’ to help in creating categories and fixing issues with categories (as Evan suggested and we obliged), fixed the top bar navigation, and generally fixed the overall aesthetic to a professional standard. I was obliged to make them an administrator, as there is no other role that allows one to act in a Technical manner alone. They have always also kept in mind accessibility for others, too.

      As for myself, I have uploaded a great deal of official art – deleting fanart, which Evan himself uploaded – and used these images to update various character pages. I’ve formatted character pages into the accepted standard, and installed Info-Boxes, which have replaced grids and bullet-point lists. I have also fixed categories on articles, created new articles, and updated articles, which also includes the main character “Kinniku Mantaro” whose page was missing entire story arc. The characters like “Ikemen Muscle” were virtually empty, with all content added by myself. I have even gone through character pages to add references, as no one referenced any content. I am online nearly every single day adding content, making edits, and working on actual content. The rules are now collected into one place and one tab (before so scattered and lost that even I had no idea they existed). I have also fixed edits in broken English and personally thanked users for their hard work.

      I would like to ask what Evan has done in these six months?

      I would like to point out that the history for the main page will show its previous appearance, unchanged for perhaps ten years, and its current appearance. I would like to point out that pages for various characters like Jaqueline Muscle, Ikemen Muscle, Kevin Mask, Warsman, or Terryman will show that a vast deal of content, images, and references have been added. I would like to point to various message walls and talk pages, which show various pieces of correspondence with users. I would now like to ask who was the one to do all this work: Evan1975 or Soutenkyuu and myself.

      I hope you can forgive my tone towards the end, but – if I may speak personally and less from an objective stance – I would say that it has been frustrating to a) first be ignored and dismissed by him when he clearly needed help, b) have him undo my deletions without contacting me to see why I was deleting them or expressing his concern, and c) have him then claim everything is fine and that he agrees with my decisions, only then to contact staff with a complaint behind my back.

      I have many concerns regarding him staying an administrator at this point.

      Thank you for your consideration.

      KevinVolkov (talk) 08:11, May 4, 2019 (UTC)

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    • But - if we're talking specifically about page deletions - Evan's complaint seemed to centre around people using said pages to look up M.U.S.C.L.E./Kinkeshi figures on release. Our page counts, and edits by users, suggest that the main attraction of this wiki is the story and main characters, as opposed to collectors, and - while badly maintained - there is a wiki dedicated to the figures. I directed Evan to this wiki, which he's more than welcome to edit and maintain by Fandom rules. 

      I have kept up pages that could be expanded, or that were 'full' articles (even when personally I thought they looked a little messy, as I respected other's work and felt unable to contribute further, and they would come in useful). The pages I deleted were stubs, often with only fanart or very basic stats, and for characters that would not get further elaboration. One was only seen in one scene, where he instantly died, and maybe was on screen for 30 seconds . . . that was one with a great deal of attention, compared to some fan-submitted characters that literally only have one image in a character book and basic stats and aren't even in the series. 

      My idea was to tidy up this wiki. 

      I recruited Soutenkyuu for a great deal of the technical side of matters, and - added to what I previously said - they also did slider-style things for music pages and chapter pages (you'll notice that you can click to switch between lyrics and/or languages). In my case, I've been doing basic maintenance, also outlined above in previous messages. In regards to this -?

      My idea is that stub articles clog the wiki and aren't needed. If someone clicks "random page", they're extremely likely to keep hitting these stubs and it's off-putting, and whenever they click a link in an article, it's usually broken and/or to these stubs. It looks unprofessional and is an artificial way to boost one's edit count. My plan was to consolidate them onto one page, which was the list of characterss, to which Evan agreed, and then - on completion - add them to the main page, so that people could use them to look for basic/background character stats (and main characters with articles would have links that could be clicked). It makes easier navigation. 

      At the minute, it's all scattered and cluttered, but my goal is to have everything in one place. If you want a technique -? Click "General Techniques" and it'll all be there. If you want "Random Background Character" -? Click "List of Kinnikuman Characters" and it'll be there. I wanted something that's accessible and easy to navigate for newcomers, while having all the detailed information - including stats - that more hardcore fans or collectors would need. 

      This seems like it would do both. 

      It felt like a fair compromise to me, as it allowed Evan - and those like him - to still have all the stats and basic information, all in one easy to find place, and yet it also decluttered the wiki and made it easier to navigate and find information for casual fans or anime/manga fans. I also don't think the rule against stubs is a bad one, particularly as - after scouring ToS and various Fandom articles - I found nothing forbidding such a rule (and I can point to dozens of wikis with the exact same rule in place). I fail to see why it is only now an issue, or even an issue at all.  

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    • I am sorry for effectively spamming you with replies. 

      I just wanted to point to our new top navigation, implemented today. You'll see - under the new system - that "Characters" has its own tab, with the lists of characters now a sub-menu and a click away (very easy to find)! It's great for newcomers, who know exactly what to click and where to go, and it's keeping all the deleted information from stubs in one place, so nothing is lost. The main draw of this wiki is for anime and manga fans, so this is an ideal solution, I find. 

      We attract extremely few - if any - fans of the Kinkeshi/MUSCLE figures, as Evan claimed many would search for characters on new release of those items, and I maintain - for collectors - a special dedicated page would be better (or redirecting people to the MUSCLE wiki instead, which would be better kept by fans of that franchise, as opposed to anime/manga fans here). 

      The new top navigation looks much better in my opinion. 

      I'm also working on "Universe", which currently just links to specific categories, and I'm also in the process of gradually tidying up categories, too (e.g. 'Character Song' and 'Character Theme Song' both existed, so I'm merging them into just 'Character Theme Song' to be easier to find). Soutenkyuu added the "Media" tab a while back, which I think looks great and is very helpful. 

      I'm still deleting old stubs and transfering the content over to the lists. 

      I hope you can agree it already looks/navigates much better, and is much more accessible, but I'm open to constructive criticism and willing to make changes. The lists still need to be properly completed, but - for now - I think they still look much better and make it much easier for people to navigate the site and find needed information. 

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    • Thank you for the background information, it is appreciated. Of particular concern is your reference to potentially racist comments - however, I'm not spotting that issue with 'Golemman'. Would you be able to provide a more specifics?

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    • The link to the "Arab" comment is here: https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Golemman

      The link to comments on "primitive" people and "oversensitive" to racism is here: https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/wiki/Amazonman?action=history

      The link to a few comments that concerned me, such as a character being "a transvestite gay", and being listed as "gay" despite a few issues with such a label, are here: https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/wiki/Okamaras?action=history

      I hope that helps, but I'm happy to find any more links to anything else, if needed. 

      Edit: The "Arabs" comment particularly disturbs me, not least as it's an offensive term, but also because I fail to see why race was even an issue . . . a simple explanation to that user of vandalism would have sufficed, but instead he brought race needlessly into the matter.

      Second Edit: He also calls a character "effeminate" here: https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/index.php?title=Pri-Clun&diff=15758&oldid=11233 . . . this is partcularly of note, as originally the character was described as 'unknown gender', and is suddenly described as 'male', while their gender is unknown in the anime and it's specifically stated chojin have no gender, so this one feels inaccurate and using homophobic terminology. Disturbingly, he also lists them as a "gay character", which is not confirmed or implied or in any way mentioned, based solely on them being "effeminate". 

      Third Edit: https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/index.php?title=Yoneo_Sasaki&diff=16664&oldid=12371 - he also lists this character as "gay", too, when no mention or hint of sexuality is shown in canon, and it seems to be solely off the back of them being "effiminate" (another user used this term this time, but he is the one to have stated they are 'gay' for seemingly reasons based in stereotypes)

      Fourth Edit: He also uses the racist term "gaijin" on his profile page, when the neutral and formal term is "gaikokujin" - this is currently on his profile page

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    • None of this is true of course. I only begrudgingly agreed with him putting "unused" characters into a list, as they never appear in the story and thus really cannot be expanded on. But he's moved on to purge dozens of canon characters now, with no rhyme or reason why some stay or some go. He just hits "Random Page" and if it's something he doesn't like, he deletes it.
      The Golemman page was frequently vandalized by anti-Semitic Arabs who wanted to remove the mention of Israel from the page. Their location can be viewed by IP checks. It's not an offensive term, it's a fact. It's also not in the article.
      Pri-Clun and Yoneo Sasaki speak in effeminate Japanese. That is also a fact. When Yoneo Sasaki contacts his dead mother via a medium, she asks if he is still "into guys". KevinVolkov would know these things if he ever actually read the manga.
      Most of his complaints here are feigned outrages over direct translations from the Japanese version of the page.
      He constantly makes mistakes like confusing two different characters with each other
      The page was designed to interface with the Japanese language version's entries. Making it all a big list (no other wiki does that) makes it unable to switch between languages. And now you cannot look up those secondary characters by faction, nationality, etc because the individual categories are gone.
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    • Evan was never clear on matters; there was no way to know what he agreed to, but - most importantly - no way to know what he disagreed to, as he never came to me with his issues (as per Fandom protocol) and instead went to staff first. 

      He assumes my actions; you'll see I've hit sections of the list alphabetically, and that the pages - as I explained - that I left up were ones that can be expanded or were more than mere stubs.

      "Arabs" is a racist term, and he could have used "Middle-Eastern" or just not referred to race. 

      "Effeminate" has negative connotations towards gay men, and - speaking as an LGBT+ person - I resent the term . . . I also resent the implication being attracted to guys makes you gay, as if pansexuals or bisexuals or other sexualities do not exist. I also resist digs at my knowledge of the manga, when I have the entire collection and reread it many times. 

      "Constantly makes mistakes" refers to one mistake between Meltdown and Big Radial, which - as you can see - look very smiliar and are hard to tell apart. It was one to which I owned, thanked Dani, and rectified. 

      And if switching randomly between English and Japanese is his priority, an odd one that no other wikis seem to consider or work in tandem with other language wikis, then he can go ahead and edit the other wiki accordingly, but - from what I can see - he was banned there, which is probably why he can't edit there. 

      Edit: https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/ja/wiki/%E3%83%A6%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B6%E3%83%BC:Evan1975 - you'll see here it says he's "blocked", and I'm tired of his little digs like implying I don't know the manga, using hyperbole to make small things seem worse, and still denying problematic behaviours when confronted by them. I would very much like to have him demoted, and I would very much like to receive permission for this, if possible, as I find this behaviour toxic and unethical of Evan1975. 

      Second Edit: If Evan wants to make edits regarding the gendered nature of Japanese pronouns and quriks, such as the formal ~masu style being more typically feminine, and how this is unique to certain characters -? Great. It is still not "effeminiate", and nor does it speak for their gender and/or sexuality unless specifically labelled in canon. 

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    • If I may speak personally for a moment -?

      I feel a lot of Evan's animosity and refusal to follow Fandom protocol, wiki rules, or to properly communicate with me, comes from bitterness with my promotion . . . I feel like he had free reign of the wiki for ten years, refusing to promote people or give people any rights, and this was despite that he could have applied for bureaucrat and people suggested this to him. A person comes along and makes extensive changes to the wiki, and he dislikes that. 

      The changes I've made are all legitimate; there's nothing against slowly moving stubs onto a list of characters, which people can still easily find, and nothing wrong with slowly trying to make things easier to navigate, more professional, and make things better for fans overall. I feel the resentment comes from the fact Evan is no longer solely "in charge". 

      I was happy to work with him, despite his occasional rude tone and undoing my deletions without first talking to me, and I was always willing to make compromise and offer olive branches . . . I edited and uploaded images for him when he asked me to do his work, and I even came up with the list compromise when he objected to outright deletions. I have always been polite and responsive to him, even when he ignored me and other users. 

      I have responded to everyone promptly since joining the wiki, including personally thanking people for their work and initiating contact, but Evan still has messages ten years old that he's never once replied to, and yet striving to make me out to be the problem. 

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    • No, you mistook Woolman and Wooljin, too. Did you ever fix that? You seem to be imposing your own personal issues onto this wiki. "Masu" does not mean "effeminate". There is more to it than that like pronouns and terms like "wa yo". And when characters like Mantaro flat out call other characters like Sasaki "okama", it cannot be ignored. The Kinnikuman franchise is inherently politically incorrect due to its age and foreign culture. If you can't handle that, maybe the series isn't for you. But if he wants to delete the gay characters category, I don't care. There are only gay 3 characters anyways. And as to the Japanese wiki, I corrected a mistake on the site, where a character was incorrectly listed as an unused character when he had in fact appeared in canon. The admin on that site also doesn't keep up with the current material and only knows the 80s stuff, so he mistook it for vandalism

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    • How can I fix something you never told me about? 

      Sure, I can go now and have a look, though. 

      And I did not say "~masu" was effeminate, but it was more feminine. We seem to be having constant communication difficulties, and you're putting words in my mouth, which makes it very hard to work with you as a peer. And "okama" is still a slur; I can call x person a "f**", but that doesn't make them gay in any way shape or form . . . if you want to assert he could be gay, feel free to use the references (I can show you how to use these, as you appear to neglect them).

      You're being passive-aggressive again. You're attacking me over my issues with your behaviour, telling me to avoid the series I love, and blaming me over this, which feels like gaslighting and abusive behaviour. This is a form of aggression. I do not appreciate your attacks. 

      Can you just - please - talk to me in a civil manner?

      I don't see how I can proceed further when you attack me and won't compromise. 

      Edit: Now you have told me about Wooljin/Woolman, you can see that I have added Woolman and his image, but . . . I feel that this could have been resolved by yourself making the change, as it seems to have occurred some time ago, and this is a community project. I have often had to correct the mistakes of others, or reword broken English into coherent sentences, but I never attacked people over it or held it against them. This behaviour feels cruel and a double-standard. I don't understand why you're doing this. 

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    • Making two or three tiny mistakes is hardly making "constant" mistakes... even the biggest fans of a series can make small mistakes. If you catch a mistake, then fix it and/or let the person who made the mistake know... that's what a community project like a wikia entails, right?

      With that said, I totally get Evan's concerns, however, I really wish he would have just expressed his opinions honestly, so he and KevinVolkov could have had an actual discussion about it; I feel if that had happened things wouldn't have escalated to this point. 

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    • I also wanted to add, along with other racist terms, he uses "gaijin" on his profile. 

      The proper term should be: 外国人 (gaikokujin).

      This latter term is more formal and neutral, whereas the former term is one contested by non-native Japanese residents within Japan, and has gained racist connotations (such as "no gaijin" signs and so forth). Having temporarily resided Japan, I can say that this term always came preloaded with negative connotations and was used in a perjorative sense. 

      He also referred to me as a "hysterical control freak" and personally attacked me on the thread upon Kirkburn's wall, taking a very hostile tone, and still refusing to reach out to me for a civil discussion, even after I pleaded with him here to talk to me  in a civil manner. 

      I have temporarily banned him for a day, just until Fandom resolve this. 

      I feel my position justifed, especially when I did iterate that I did not feel safe with him on staff, and he proceeded to attack me and thus prove why I do dread logging on these days. This is a community platform, and if he can do this to a bureaucrat, I dread to think what he would do to other users should they equally make decisions to which he disgagrees. 

      Edit: I have reached out directly to him again on his page, but - at this point - I would still like to demote him (with fandom permission) for all the outlined reasons . . . I still hope that he will talk to me, though, so we can at least be civil and Evan feel more at rest, as this is a community fandom and it worries me that he seems to have such animosity 

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    • Okay, so I've been asked for my two cents since it's clear that an agreement is never going to be reached. :-S I hope that I can throw in some helpful ideas.

      I get KevinVolkov's concern over stubs, as they cause clutter and don't necessarily look great because of lack of content (especially when there are so many of them). However, I also get Evan's concerns about the amount of content being deleted and consolidated, since it can effect how searchable/linkable pages are. 

      Perhaps a compromise could be to restore pages that have at least character stats and more than a single line of content? All in all, restore the pages that can actually be expanded on at some point. Just make sure to add the stub template to make sure they're categorised as article stubs. And this way characters that actually play a role in the series are easily searchable and easy to link on other pages (and they're easily paired with other language wikis)

      Also, maybe the format for the character lists could be tweaked slightly, so the characters who remain on the big lists are easier to find and be linked to. I edited the "B" section on the unused character lists temporarily just so I could show what I mean here . So the characters are clickable on the contents table, and are linkable... so for example, I can still link to Bicorn like this

      I hope this helps in some way and that things get sorted soon. 

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    • I think that's a great compromise, thank you :) 

      I hope this suits Evan. 

      I would ask that we only restore pages that can be expanded, not just fan-submissions that only exist on showcasing chapter title-pages, or that only exist in character books, or as Kinkeshi . . . if they can be expanded on in future, it's worth restoring for sure, though! 

      If I go through the lists now to restore content that can be expanded, would you be able to tackle the formatting of the lists for me, please? If not, I'll do that as soon as I've done this :) 

      Thank you so much for the suggestion, as it's a good one :) 

      Edit: I restored everything that I thought could be expanded, but it's very few articles . . . I'd have to take another look tomorrow, as well as discuss it with Soutenkyuu (as Evan refuses to talk with me), and see whether I'm just being too strict in selecting what could potentially be expanded upon. The characters I didn't restore either said everything that could be said, or were fan-submissions, one-panel characters, etc. - on a different note, I added the stub template to what I restored in hopes others can later expand upon them. 

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    • Just want to throw my two cents in there. If you look at my user history, you can see I'm no slouch when it comes to adding to the wiki community. In fact, I was the founder of the Office Wiki, Dunderpedia, and I can say for certain that one of the reasons that wiki was able to take off the way it did was because I laid a foundation by creating pages for every episode and every character ahead of time.

      I started contributing to the Kinnikuman wiki myself a few months ago, and was working hard on creating pages for each individual episode of the anime. Were the pages complete? No, mostly just summaries, episode numbers, and character appearances, but every wiki needs a skeleton before it could be properly fleshed out. In addition to that, I also created a number of character pages (admittedly for lesser characters, but ones that at least had multiple appearances on the show) and started uploading character images to round those pages out as well. Much to my chagrin, most of the stuff I created has been deleted by Kevin. It's very disheartening to put so many hours into helping flesh out an underdeveloped wiki, only for one user to make the executive decision to delete HUNDREDS of pages of content.

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    • The pages you created for episodes were almost completely empty and - at the time - didn't seem necessary (as I hadn't your side of events) , as they almost all could be put onto the episode list, which is probably the first place people would look. I concede your point, and I'll restore today the few that contained even a little more information than was on the list itself.

      Still, I feel the issue is that the old staff had rules like "there are no rules" and actively encouraged stubs or empty pages, seemingly to artificially up one's edit count. It feels like people are just resenting a change (insofar as characters only), as those character pages - especially for unused characters - can *not* be expanded.

      The episodes can easily be restored (all of them, actually, as they could all theoretically be expanded), but a mere glance shows the deleted character ones should stay deleted. 

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    • I'm restoring them now for you, so you should start seeing them reappear. Again, I do wish you'd said something too. This is the very first you've ever said anything; I could have restored them weeks ago, as I totally agree with your point on episodes. I can't change what I don't even know is an issue to people. 

      Edit: All have been restored, so if you see any episodes missing than let me know (there were more than I thought, so I can see as well why this would have irked you). The rest of your deletions are for characters, and - as mentioned earlier - that one is trickier and will require some consideration. I'll look into it more today, I promise, and will get back to you directly about what's been restored or not. 

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    • Thank you. I appreciate that you've reconsidered, and I'll do my best to help contribute worthwhile content going forward.

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    • To be fair, I think the episode articles could be worthwhile too. You listed characters and summaries, which could becine plots and cast lists and trivia, even a section for manga differences, and I think they could be the start of something incredibly useful. They felt "unnecessary" to me at the time, as I wasn't thinking forward, but you raise an excellent point and I apologise for any trouble.

      Do feel free to speak to me in future, especially over anything that concerns you, as I'm always happy to listen :) Your contributions are valued, and I can't apologise enough that you were made to feel otherwise, as that was not my intent. When I go through characters later, I'll also double check I've caught all episodes for you, too. 

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    • Mr. Kirkburn, I'd like to show you a little recap of events here.

      • I've been here a really long time, almost since the beginning of the Wiki. You may look and see that I've never argued with ANYONE. Kinnikufan and IdolChoujin Showtime were the original admins/bureaucrats. There may have been others. You will not find any arguments between us. I didn't even really ask to admin, it just kind of happened because they disappeared. If they want to return and be admins/bureaucrats again I would have no problem with that. I didn't even know Wikia had removed them until just recently. So we've got over a decade of a Wiki with no drama.
      • KevinVolkov intentionally misrepresents this Wiki is abandoned to Wikia, when he knows this is not the case.
      • KevinVolkov gets admin/bureaucrat and then proceeds to DELETE HUNDREDS OF PAGES and images without discussing it with anyone. His justifications for these deletions is extremely vague. Two words "Not needed" is his usual subjective justification.
      • I see massive deletions on my RSS and run in to fix them. He immediately redeletes them all. His first ever interaction with me is curtly ordering me to leave images the deleted. He then threatens me with 'Soutenkyuu agrees with me on this.' At this point he made me feel powerless as it was two against one. I begrudgingly say he can remove unused characters as a compromise, even though I don't agree with that at all. I'm not used to any sort of conflict on this Wiki.
      • KevinVolkov then continues to go on more mass deletion sprees, now unrepentantly deleting canon characters, tag teams, episodes, etc with no discussion and more of his "not needed". He makes multiple mistakes with confusing characters. (There are still mistakes on his "lists" he makes, but I don't feel comfortable fixing them in the current climate.)
      • Dejected at this point, I reached out to Kirkburn. Kirkburn agrees to talk to KevinVolkov. He asks if he can use my name, and I hesitantly agree. I am afraid that using my name will trigger a meltdown from Kevin as he's shown himself to be quite immature. But I feel that it would be cowardly to do it anonymously.
      • As I expected, KevinVolkov throws an epic temper tantrum. As he cannot deny what he has done, he tries to distract from the issue by character assassination of myself. He proceeds to cyberstalk me by going through decades of my edits on this Wiki and at least one other to try to find dirt to discredit me. As he can't find anything incriminating, he proceeds to quote certain texts from the wiki (usually direct translations from Japanese sources) and my discussion page out of context to try and make me look like some kind of bigot. This disturbs me greatly.
      • I step in to defend myself. This just enrages KevinVolkov even more. He escalates his libel of me. He begins making ridiculous lies like I committed "violence" against him.
      • KevinVolkov projects his own insecurities onto me, going on and on about how it's all about how I'm "not in charge" anymore. This "pulling rank" is against the spirit of Wikia as Mr. Kirkburn explained to me.
      • Kevin Volkov ingenuously offers to have Soutenkyuu decide who should be "in charge", forgetting that he's already threatened me with "Soutenkyuu has my full support." I have nothing against her, but it is obvious why I will not agree to this ploy.
      • KevinVolkov openly expresses his desire to have me removed, using this false image he's tried to portray of me. Even though I have seniority over him-- a dozen years of uneventful service to this wiki. He then bans me and tries to twist this to show I'm irrational and "refusing to talk" when he knows I cannot do so.
      • Mr. Kirkburn, I don't really feel comfortable "talking" to KevinVolkov when he has shown to be easily triggered, vindictive, and has a propensity to take anything I say out of context to try and use as "ammo" against me.
      • An editor also expresses concern about KevinVolkov's massive deletions. KevinVolkov proceeds to undelete only those pages created by that individual because he knows he's under scrutiny. You can check the deletion logs and see that this is only a tiny fraction of what he has destroyed. There's no telling if KevinVolkov won't decide those pages are "not needed" again when the heat is off of him.
      • Kevin Volkov continues to lobby against me to be removed post haste without a fair hearing, with paranoid fears that "there's no telling what he will do!!!!" when I haven't touched any articles since my grievance was raised with Mr. Kirkburn. All I've done is defend myself, something KevinVolkov believes I'm not allowed to do because "he's in charge".
      • CONCLUSION: Mr Kirkburn, KevinVolkov has shown he does not have the temperament to be admin or bureaucrat. He is immature, paranoid, vindictive, and underhanded. I ask that he be removed from his position. I can't see how I can ever work with him with all the libel he has spread about me and his naked ambition to have me removed. If he treats me this way, imagine how he will treat the regular, powerless editors if they dare to offend his delicate sensibilities once all eyes are off of him.
      • He can still be an editor if he wants as long as he refrains from his penchant for deleting information. If Wikia would like other admins promoted on this Wiki, I ask that you the poll the stable of regular editors. I know IdolChoujinShowtime is still active on other Wikis.

      As for myself, as Mr. Kirkburn has noted, it was a mistake on Wikia's end that I was never made bureaucrat. I humbly request that that be rectified. I've already noted my decade plus of service to this Wiki. I shouldn't have to justify any further, but I will. I have a BA in Japanese and attended University in Japan as an exchange student. There I picked up all the Kinnikuman books and anime (cartoons) and have continued to buy the latest volumes and have them all on reference. I also provide QC for "Hokuto no Gun"'s translation of the Kinnikuman and I am even credited on these videos as "Denshousha".

      • I hope you take this all into consideration with this difficult decision, and I'm sorry to have dragged you into this. evan1975 (talk) 16:03, May 9, 2019 (UTC)
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    • There are very simple counters:

      • It's impossible to argue with people that are inactive for ten years, and whom allow you free reign
      • When have I ever claimed this wiki was abandonned?
      • Again, Evan never expressed a concern or asked me to be more elaborate 
      • I was curt as - again - Evan never discussed anything, and my priority was to quickly get him to stop undoing my work while he was still in the process of doing it . . . that I said Soutenkyuu might agree is hardly a "threat", but just a fact that we have to take into account all sides and work together to make decisions
      • As stated; the 'many' mistakes are very rare, especially compared to my hundreds of substantial edits with references . . . today I added to tag pages that were merely one sentence, that Evan was somehow unable - in ten years - to copy/paste stories over to provide them with content, and even now he refuses to accept this is a community to a) tell me of mistakes or b) correct the mistakes himself 
      • I find it ironic he is still attacking me with 'easily triggered' and 'vindicative', but somehow he's the one not comfortable to talk to me
      • I knew he'd make that accusation: that user was polite, made a fair point, and I agreed . . . I restored pages that can be expanded . . . no biases and no hidden agenda (it was also the first time they contacted me about this, so I couldn't correct it before now)
      • It's also ironic he's parroting my concerns about him, only now demanding for my removal ater I ask for his, and yet somehow - still - uses very aggressive and rude language to do so, which borders again on a personal attack

      I also wasn't aware we needed to list our qualifications? Do I need to post my entire collection of manga, anime, and so forth? Do I need to send in photocopies of my BA (Hons) degreee in turn? I find this childish, and - pardon the expression - a petty "pissing contest". He was told twice by separate users that he could have applied to be bureaucrat, and yet only now wants the position when someone else has it.

      If I may be honest -?

      If Fandom staff think me so inept, I would offer Soutenkyuu to be bureaucrat. Evan himself says he has no issue with her; I would still like to be bureaucrat - or at least an administrator - but Evan's responses here prove he has no place as a staff member. I can only apologise in turn for the escalation of events, all caused by Evan who refuses to compromise. KevinVolkov (talk) 16:21, May 9, 2019 (UTC)

      Edit: It seems I missed some of his points. 

      • I'll ask what "immature" behaviour was shown before this supposed point?
      • I explained to Evan I did not "cyberstalk" him, but merely remembered things in previous edits and searches and so forth, then used google to find what I previously saw (as I don't exactly keep a record of every point of contention)
      • A few of those bullet points are just attempts to make me seem "hysterical" as he previously called me
      • I never said Soutenkyuu can decide whose in charge, again he is just using hyperbole and lies . . . I said we can use Soutenkyuu to break the tie, as she's an impartial third-party 
      •  The fact he thinks there's "seniority" on a wiki is worrying; it's a community project, and many times I've referred to him as a peer, treated him as an equal, and never pulled rank in the way he is attempting at present

      He can defend himself, sure, but he's making personal attacks, refusing to talk to me, and lying about me . . . I can back up everything I said about him, but I know he can't do the same, as he's outright twisting things I've said into lies, and I'm just tired at this point . . . this is the kind of thing I mean. I went offline, only to come back and see this attempt at a character assassination 

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    • At this point, I am just outright tired. 

      There was no 'drama' before, as Evan had sole control of the wiki for ten years, and we have so few editors and contributors and users . . . the other staff were absent, and he only sporadically logged on, and he never added substantial edits (he claims to have all the manga, but never once added references, stories, etc., and at one point asked a user who a character was, as he assumed they were lying, as he'd never heard of that character). 

      I'm tired. 

      I'm tired that he won't talk to me. I'm tired that he insults me. I'm tired that he won't follow Fandom protocol (as in talking to each other and working as a community to resolve matters). I'm tired he's blatantly lying in places or twisting my words. I'm tired he's trying to insinuate I'm some sort of cyber-stalker. I'm tired that his one legitimate grievance was the deletions, which has been resolved (with the help of Sountenkyuu and DaHumorist). I'm just tired. 

      It's at the point where I'd happily promote another bureaucrat and back down to administrator, should Fandom say that is for the best, but I think Evan is continuously proving why he shouldn't be allowed to stay on as an administrator. I still very much object to him becoming a bureaucrat, as he's also proven incapable of discussion and communication. 

      I've made concessions. I've made apologies. I've reached out. 

      He just sits there slandering me, refusing to compromise. 

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      • KevinVolkov went to a "community.wikia.com" page behind my back and argued that he be made admin. I was unaware this discussion was happening and he knows this. I was never given a notice or email about it.
      • It doesn't matter if they're inactive or not, they were "in charge" and I did not argue with them. I treated them with respect. I also never argued with editors after I became admin. I never deleted anyone's work. If it was substandard, I at least tried to fix it up a bit for them.
      • KevinVolkov started this by deleting tons of content without notifying me. In light of this unilateral and unauthorized action, it is only natural that I tried to undelete this vandalism. Once he ordered me to stop, I did.
      • Making a wiki is a lot of work. As DaHumorist has explained, you have to start with a skeleton to fill it out. I did not create all these stub articles. The tag team pages are not ten years old as he claims. There usually isn't information to paste on these yet. They need to be painstakingly translated to Japanese.
      • The tag teams have their own combined "special moves" and fight histories, that is why they needed there own pages. 99% of the articles that he has destroyed had a purpose and function on this wiki and a reason for being there. As Mr. Kirkburn has described, there is no concern for server space or anything of the like to justify these deletions. *Situations where a page is just a picture and a few words and a pic are rare.
      • Again, I feel afraid to say anything to KevinVolkov without him blowing it out of proportion or going to extremes. In the early days when I thought we could work together, I made a request that we work to replace 3rd party art with art directly from the manga. Many of the character pages use artwork from a defunct Japanese website drawn by Masaharu Nakamura, creator of the Kinnikuman characters The Cyborg and Musashi. (Kevin has deleted Musashi's page, so I'm sorry it cannot be referenced.) It is therefore semi-canon, but I'd prefer to use art from Yoshinori Nakai if possible. But Kevin proceeds to delete every instance of Mr. Nakamura's artwork without first replacing it. Worse, he uses "fan art" as justification to delete the pages themselves.
      • The majority of Kinnikuman characters and a few Tatakae!! Ramenman were submitted by Japanese readers (3rd parties). I've often been able to locate these original sketches and posted them where appropriate. Kevin has wrongfully deleted many of these images as "fanart". Again, if he would have consulted me at any time instead of acting unilaterally, he would not have made all this mistakes.
      • I only listed my qualifications because KevinVolkov claimed to be some sort of master of the Japanese language in another attempt to libel me. "Gaijin" is generally not offensive and is even used on television regularly. Foreign actors are called "Gaijin Talent". Foreigners in Japan are issued a gaijin card. And besides, he's trying to speech police me for calling myself a gaijin. People referred to me as gaijin all the time in Japan and nobody cared. This is utterly ridiculous.
      • So KevinVolkov is angry that I only asked for his removal only after he asked for mine? How exactly is this a virtue? I was hoping I could work with him, but after he did that (asking for me to be removed in a different conversation that the one I was engaged in hoping I wouldn't notice) it's clear that I now cannot work with someone who hates my guts (remember his first rant when you first spoke with him politely that started all this) and wants me gone.
      • I don't know what he's talking about with people telling me twice to apply to be bureaucrat. This never happened, unless he's talking about after he "took charge". I never realized I wasn't, because I should have been as Mr. Kirkburn has already explained.
      • KevinVolkov is the one who escalated everything by his repeated personal attacks and attempts at character assassination, which he's never apologized for. He uses weasel words and pedantic half-truths like, "I never called you a bigot" because he never used those exact words, even though he has said just as much with his rampant accusations.
      • I've never been any ruder to this guy than he has with me. I never used any obscenities or crude terms as he has. He even admitted he was curt with me. Again, he's overly sensitive and sees everything as an attack unless people do exactly what he wants. You can look at the timeline of comments and see he started this with ad-hominems when Kirkburn first spoke with him. He's never made *any* compromises with me and has ignored any grievances I've had, only acting unilaterally.
      • Again, I have nothing against this Soutenkyuu person. But I don't know her and with KevinVolkov continually insisting she has his full support, you can see why I can't place much faith in his proposal. I have no problem with her being an admin, though, as she has never engaged in any unilateral deletions as far as I'm aware.
      • KevinVolkov has shown he cannot be trusted with any sort of power. He cannot be trusted with the Delete button and he cannot be trusted with the block button as he has shown wanton disregard for the proper use of these powers by deleting anything and everything he doesn't like and blocking anybody from speaking that dares offend his delicate sensibilities or he sees as challenging his authority. This is the worst possible type of person you could ever have running a wiki as he wants it to be his personal playground with no respect to the contributors' hard work. evan1975 (talk) 17:21, May 9, 2019 (UTC)
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    • It was an adoption page . . . 

      One I went to after I came to you first and you ignored me. 

      I'm too tired to even read the rest after that first point, and I will try to respond later, but I feel it best not to respond further at this point. I'm instead going to make a thread for users to discuss your potential demotion or not, allowing them a fair and impartial voice in matters, and I think this is the best course of action at present (with persmission given from Fandom). 

      Edit: A lot of this boils down to you not talking to me, making accusations that are untrue (you still cannot prove I used the word "bigot", because I did not), and yourself not paying attention to members, as on your old talk-page - around eight years ago, someone suggested to you that you become a bureaucrat. I also offered you compromises, as seen on your talk page. You are still resorting to personally attacks, too, and clinging on to the deletion issue while refusing to talk to me on the issue. 

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    • I never ignored you. I don't recall you ever coming to me, unless you changed your name. I told that person I would consider it, but that I was very sick and couldn't deal with it immediately. You chose to take advantage of my illness and stage a coup-de-tat of sorts. Without permission, you came into other peoples' house, rearranged all the furniture, and stole the silverware, without discussing it with a single soul. Take a look at all these other admins and editors that contributed to this site. You didn't even know who IdolChoujinShowtime and Kinnikufan were! Stop trying to insinuate everything here was done by me.

      I find it ironic that you're pulling this "I'm too tired to respond" routine when you're trying to deplatform me by accusations of not responding! Even after I told you I'd rather not talk to you without input from Mr. Kirkburn. But I'm still here talking and you're misrepresenting facts saying I'm "not talking"/"not answering"/"not discussing". Mr. Kirkburn, this person obviously has a lot of spare time on their hands that I frankly do not. I have a life outside of Wikis and cannot respond to him immediately as he demand from you and I.

      You are not offering any compromises, only "respect my authority!" I've said that you undeleting all the content you deleted would show that you are willing to compromise. You did not.

      And yes, anyone with eyes can read your comments and see how you tried to take quotes out of context in a cheap fashion as to falsely portray me as a bigot, knowing how serious those kind of accusations are, in an attempt to deplatform me. The fact that you continue to deny it on basis of semantics shows how disingenuous you are.

      Now he's trying to rig some sort of "election" in an attempt to get rid of me, without the input or approval Mr.Kirkburn or Wikia. Why aren't we "electing" on whether to keep KevinVolkov as he is the newbie here and he's causing all the problems that's affecting the Wiki itself. How would we make all the editors aware of this "election" anyways? But I don't imagine any editors or readers would say, "I hate having all this content! Please delete it all or make it very difficult to find on a bunch of randoms lists and not individual pages!"

      Mr. Kirkburn and the folks at Fandom/Wikia, you know where to get a hold of me. I can back up everything I am saying and can show you further errors, gaffes, and mistakes that he has introduced into this wiki due to his trying to fix what wasn't broken. evan1975 (talk) 18:14, May 9, 2019 (UTC)

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    • I obeyed Fandom rules. Everything I did was legitimate. 

      I think it's valid to want to stop talking to someone that continues to twist the truth and make personal attacks, which I have never done to you and only ever been civil. 

      How is complete and utter obedience to you "compromise", when you were unwilling to sacrifice anything in turn? That "solution" relies on me not gaining anything, but you gaining everything. 

      Semantics are important when you are making accusations that are untrue. 

      I received an email from Fandom that allows me to stage this "election" as you call it. 

      And I still maintain - as staff can see - the wiki looks much better since I became bureaucrat . . . a proper main page, formatted articles, a top bar easy to navigate, references to articles, stubs turned into full pages, creation of articles for characters like Suzie, responses to users and attempts to reply to people (even when they were ignored or given answers like "don't know"), enabling Java script, fixing broken English . . . it's an endless list. 

      Edit: I also just noticed it's ironic he thinks my few edit notes of "not needed" are too vague, when I almost always use edit notes - usually very clear and extensive - and he's very rarely used edit notes at all . . . but - then again - he rarely makes edits at all, so I suppose it could be difficult to remember to use such notes when editing is such a rare occurence. 

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    • A FANDOM user
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